Curse

The Pope · May 31, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Skill being more important doesn't make unfair advantages fair. They're not big unfair advantages, but there isn't any real reason for them to be in PvP. It would be much better if they put in really powerful stuff that was actually satisfying to get, then only allowed it to be used in PvE.

Zorlag · May 31, 2005, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Those people who do not wish to 'grind' 'farm' or 'work' to get near maximum enjoyment do not have to, they can create characters as good if not better than most right from the beginning, but the absolute hardcore achievements of victory, and highest level of skills and character power shall not be handed free to them, indeed shall not be accesible, excpet via the entire game.

No real competitive game I know has uneven playfield if other team used time for something that doesn't include competing with other teams. Only way to improve your changes of winning is to practice. Even CS has even playfield on the first round (I don't like the money system the game has btw, it can make games boring when other team has to toss rounds using just pistols to collect money).

PvE style PvP is not real PvP to me (aka WoW or Diablo2), and that's all there's to it. There still hasn't been good argument against having PvP characters that have access to all tools from the get go, besides comments from people who like to lord things they have over others. And PvE player who wants to try PvP could just create one and off he goes. Current stagnation of the ladder is just because real hardcore players will not compromise. This game looked like a first real competitive fantasy game but still falls bit short at least for now. At minimum they should start piling up rune and equipment rewards for just playing PvP. There is a little of this now but it needs to give access at least as fast as farming so that nobody needs to do that if they don't want to. I'm sure even you agree that farming just to get equipment access for PvP is retarted activity, yet it is required currently.

fasteddie8989 · May 31, 2005, 12:46 PM // 12:46

why not let PVPer's trade a sigil to unlock a skill. This would not be handing them skills on a siler plater. Just a sugestion.

NiknudStunod · May 31, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Exactly, the major driving force behind this game IS skill, yet all I read is people complaining about how numbers of skills, runes, elites unbalance the game, make it unfair, blah blah blah.

That just shows your absolute ignorance of Guild Wars, tbh. If you cant see that these items are desirable for a good player, not a necessity to become a good player, then you need not post much more on any topic.
These items. and skills, simply boil down to you not wanting to have to go through the same methods of attaining them as any one else.
They are not game breakers, people without them are not at a disadvantage before a fight starts.
Infact your more likely to gain victories through opponents choosing ONE WRONG SKILL than you are by stacking up on runes and elites.

Timing, imo, can be more important than the very weapon you wield In GW.

My point to all this is that your only arguement for the addition of UAS etc. can be your own impatience and desire to have what others have, without doing what they did to get them. Not unbalance, unfairness, or any other crap.

Anyway here is something I wrote in another post about this extremelly annoying debate.

There is a post asking why cant their be a PvE ladder and an UAS ladder, or why cant the game be split into PvE and PvP. I say this might just work, under a few conditions.

The PvP only characters get access to all their skills. They do not EVER get access to elite skills or runes. These should only be avaible via PvE, thus meaning that hardest hardcore of the game will remain the full game, PvE to PvP character, while still giving PvP only characters access to almost everything, except the very best.

This means that the players who play the entire game with the most hardcore attitude can achieve the most hardcore characters, builds, and achievements. This ill mean people who play ALL OF GUILD WARS will be the only ones who can possibly squeeze every last ounce of power and ability out of their characters. Thus meaning that those players who wish to be the best at the game in all respects shall have to deal with entire game, and tbh I dont think anyone who has aims of being the absolute champion of Guild Wars will have considered doing any less...

Those people who do not wish to 'grind' 'farm' or 'work' to get near maximum enjoyment do not have to, they can create characters as good if not better than most right from the beginning, but the absolute hardcore achievements of victory, and highest level of skills and character power shall not be handed free to them, indeed shall not be accesible, excpet via the entire game.

The power should be readily accessible to everyone. If a pver wants to grind for his skills then he should be able to. If a pvper wants to just unlock his skills he should be able to. I don't understand why anyone wants to force there views on anyone else.

Nim · May 31, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Arenanet wanted to market this game to 3 groups of players, pure PvP, pure PvE, and PvE&P (with the largests emphesis on the later). In order to satisfy all 3, changes will have to be made, it's obvious the PvP crowd is unhappy and Arenanet did make a no grind promise to them.

I fall into the PvE&P as do many others. If we (the PvE&P community) do not support the seperate ladders our enjoyment of the game will end up diminished by Arenanet in an effort to satisfy the PvP only crowd... we do not want this to happen.

Arenanet, instead of creating a seperate ladder, would have no choice but to add more skills to the PvP char. This will greatly take away from benefits of develoding PvE&P char. Changes to the existing system would ruin the reason we develop chars in the first place. So... in my opinion, seperate ladders is the only fair option. I support seperate ladders and I ask other PvP&Eers to do the same.

Arenanet WILL do something to make the PvPers happy, the recent announcement of Arenanet adding more bosses to make it easier to get the Elite skills seems in effort to do just that, if it continues we will see the benefit of PvP&E chars greatly diminish, and that scares me. Do we want their solutions to negetively affect the PvE&Pers? No we dont. So I urge everyone to voice thir support the of seperate ladder creation. This is the only way to satisfy the PvP only players while keeping the true spirit intact for the PvP&Eers.

However, the current ladder (PvE&P) needs to continue to allow the use of PvP chars. Players have to be able to create different class chars for battles. Many of us go through a lot of PvE grind to unlock skills for additional classes allowing us to be deverse in the team make-up durring PvP or GvG.

Remember, as a PvE&Per you would always have the option to compete in both ladders (my guild would gladly compete in both)- the PvP ladder (with special PvP chars with set skills) and the PvP&E ladder (with your PvE and PvP chars that can utilize unlocked skills and runes). Why not support the seperate ladders... you run a big risk of hurting the PvE&P community by not supporting the seperate ladders.

-Nim

Celes Tial · May 31, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

If we (the PvE&P community) do not support the seperate ladders our enjoyment of the game will end up diminished by Arenanet in an effort to satisfy the PvP only crowd... we do not want this to happen

Those who want a seperate ladder system are a minority. The rest understand that there are better solutions. The PvP only crowd is a minority as well, I'm sure Arenanet will not spoil the game for a majority to please the few PvPers who insist on being bottle-fed and refuse to accept better solutions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

Changes to the existing system would ruin the reason we develop chars in the first place. So... in my opinion, seperate ladders is the only fair option.

I pointed out before why seperate ladders would ruin the reason to develop roleplay characters. It really is common sense. Splitting the community didnt work in other games, nor would it work here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

Arenanet WILL do something to make the PvPers happy

I'm pretty sure Arenanet will never satisfy the few who insist on being bottle-fed with zero time investment. A roleplay game is about character development. The many PvPers who would enjoy character development through PvP will likely see improvements soon.

Nim · May 31, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

You dont think the recent announcement of adding many new bosses to have easy access to elite skills is a attempt to satisfy the PvPers? Dont you think easing the work needed to aquire the skills the start of a slippery slope that ends with PvP players having equal skills to us harder core PvE&Pers?

I am just really afraid that any attempt to please PvPers, other than giving them their own ladder, will affect us negetively. I just want to head it off before it happens, althought it may already be too late, it may have already started.

-Nim

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Lazarous has very solid arguments.

I'm a bit amused when some claim that there are so many PvEer/PvPers that would prefer the current situation over UAS, but that if a UAS system was implemented, there would be no one left in the PvE/PvP ladder because everyone would move to UAS. Those who have made that argument do realize that there are two ladders under a dual ladder system, right? Those of like mindsets are free to compete with each other. Templates should work just like they do now in the PvE/PvP ladder. The only difference is a seperate UAS system.

So many invalid arguments have been rehashed over and over and over in this thread. Lazarous, do you want to attempt to compile a list of fallacies against a UAS system?

The only valid argument I have heard thus far against UAS and a major problem of UAS is that it would split the community. Whether or not this is a bad thing no one knows for sure. It is probably better to err on the side of caution and simply implement being able to obtain skills purely through PvP, although I still feel UAS is the better solution.

TiC · May 31, 2005, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

I'm a bit amused when some claim that there are so many PvEer/PvPers that would prefer the current situation over UAS, but that if a UAS system was implemented, there would be no one left in the PvE/PvP ladder because everyone would move to UAS. Those who have made that argument do realize that there are two ladders under a dual ladder system, right? Those of like mindsets are free to compete with each other. Templates should work just like they do now in the PvE/PvP ladder. The only difference is a seperate UAS system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiC

It's not necessarily the bulk of the player base that will be playing PvP, it's that there will be less players playing PvP in the PvE ladder. This is because some people like to play PvE only and won't compete in PvP at all, thus limiting overall group availability.

As much as I hate repeating myself, I'm finding it necessary for some people in this thread. Again, there would obviously be less PvP competition in the PvE ladder because many people will be there for PvE only. People who want to participate in PvP will obviously want a larger player base to organize games, because in case you haven't already realized, it's enough of a pain in the ass to get competent HoH PUGs as is. Yeah, so let's split things up more, that sounds like a great idea.

The Virago · May 31, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Totally unrelated aside -- I was amazed to see so many people unwilling to even ATTEMPT to fight without what they perceived as 'the perfect team' in HoH. Honestly, every shred of credibility in the 'it's about the skill of the player' argument was hoisted on the petard of this reality.

As to the subject, I doubt seriously anyone is going to convince or convert anyone else here. And to be sure the in-fighting (which is what this is) doesn't advance ideas for change that can be embraced by ArenaNet (e.g., all vocal support for compromise X, for example).

A pity.

Lazarous · May 31, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

So many invalid arguments have been rehashed over and over and over in this thread. Lazarous, do you want to attempt to compile a list of fallacies against a UAS system?

god no, that'd take weeks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tic

As much as I hate repeating myself, I'm finding it necessary for some people in this thread. Again, there would obviously be less PvP competition in the PvE ladder because many people will be there for PvE only. People who want to participate in PvP will obviously want a larger player base to organize games, because in case you haven't already realized, it's enough of a pain in the ass to get competent HoH PUGs as is. Yeah, so let's split things up more, that sounds like a great idea.

repeating gibberish is just that. If people feel the same as you and want unequal competition, they will stay in the standard ladder. If they want skill based competition they move to the UAS ladder. This only becomes a problem if the vast majority of the community chooses one over the other - and if this is so, that implies the choice they didn't make is the one that is not fun.

Aug · May 31, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I don't really see a need to unlock the skills. They're relatively easy to acquire. I have about 150 hours played on my Monk/Elementalist, and I have 15 Elite skills between the two professions. With a little research, you can grab a full group of henchmen and acquire most any skill in about an hour. Maybe two. That's not much of a 'grind', IMO.

What I have a problem with is the unlocking of runes. I've unlocked 2 Major runes (Divine Favor & Blood Magic), and maybe half of the Minor runes. I've not found a Superior rune yet. The drop rate seems atrociously bad, and many of the drops aren't even IDable.

So instead of UAS, lets have UAR (Unlock All Runes). Skills are very easy to get. 3-4 days played and you can get most every skill for a Profession, but you won't have gotten many Runes at all.

Lazarous · May 31, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I've been running under the assumption that a UAS ladder would unlock everything, including runes and weapon mods.

Aug · May 31, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

repeating gibberish is just that. If people feel the same as you and want unequal competition, they will stay in the standard ladder. If they want skill based competition they move to the UAS ladder. This only becomes a problem if the vast majority of the community chooses one over the other - and if this is so, that implies the choice they didn't make is the one that is not fun.

The vast majority, I suspect, would choose PvP only... and after a few weeks, they'd simply stop playing the game, because there'd be no sense of accomplishment (only a very small portion of the playerbase is actually COMPETING on the global ladder; the majority are just fodder), or any form of motivation to continue playing.

I think the best the "PvP community" can hope to achieve is for skills (including elite) and runes to be unlocked during PvP play, just as you can acquire XP. However, that rate of unlocking needs to come at a slower pace, I think, than straight PvE.

I don't think the majority of the playerbase wants "something for nothing". Most people like to feel they EARNED their place, and I don't think many people would be proud claiming "My guild is #2,062 on the ladder today!!", even if there were 50,000 guilds. So in order for there to be a sense of accomplishment for EVERYONE, there has to be something that doesn't 'rank' you, but still takes some effort: the PvE grind to get Runes & Skills.

In short, the UAS system would destroy the PvP you love, because you'd lose a vast majority of your companions. And the PvE players would suffer, too, as there'd be almost no reason to play PvE, unless you wanted to play a sub-standard PvE game (IMO, WoW is far superior in regards to PvE). I don't mind the PvE much in GW, but I certainly wouldn't be doing it if I could just press a button and have everything unlocked for PvP/GvG.

gwden · May 31, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Aug,

So in games like counter-strike, where you get "something for nothing," did players leave "after a few weeks?" Not to mention, CS has only like what, 15 or so guns? GW has over 450 'guns,' or so to speak.

Lazarous · May 31, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

In short, the UAS system would destroy the PvP you love, because you'd lose a vast majority of your companions.

Possible. Considering that the alternative destroys it anyway, i'm not seeing how a chance of success is inferior to a certainty of failure.

Aug · May 31, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwden

Aug,

So in games like counter-strike, where you get "something for nothing," did players leave "after a few weeks?" Not to mention, CS has only like what, 15 or so guns? GW has over 450 'guns,' or so to speak.

The instant gratification that exists in CS does not in GW. The style of "PvP" in the two games is vastly different. What draws people to CS is the fast play and ability to be a '1 man army'. Those things don't exist in GW. GW is a much more intellectual game... and I don't think the UAS system would keep those people around.

I don't think I'd play GW without the 'achievement/character development' (unlocking runes & skills) aspect of the game.

Double post content:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Possible. Considering that the alternative destroys it anyway, i'm not seeing how a chance of success is inferior to a certainty of failure.

Certainty of failure? The game is still doing quite well, I think. It certainly hasn't failed. What makes you so certain it will fail? In what time frame? Most RPGs last for quite a while, no matter how poorly they're staffed or updated. I don't expect GW to 'fail' for at least a year, and will likely last much longer, based upon the attentiveness I've seen from the devs so far.

I think far fewer players will quit because they have to do a grind to be the most uber of uber, than compared to the number that would simply stop playing due to boredom if everything were available from the get-go. You don't need those Major or Superior runes... 20-30 hps, or a few extra points of damage, will not swing the favor your way in the face of teamwork, or superior play. And you can only bring one Elite skill to the table every fight... so you really only need to find a few, and like I said, they're not that hard to get.

Lazarous · May 31, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Certainty of failure? The game is still doing quite well, I think. It certainly hasn't failed. What makes you so certain it will fail? In what time frame? Most RPGs last for quite a while, no matter how poorly they're staffed or updated. I don't expect GW to 'fail' for at least a year, and will likely last much longer, based upon the attentiveness I've seen from the devs so far.

The gwg ladder is dead. That seems like a pretty certain failure to me. Hardcore pvp are leaving this game because of the grind requirements that were added at the last minute. That seems like failure to me.

Candyman963 posted this in another thread that is now locked, i hope he won't mind me using it here since he states better than i can what i mean by 'failure'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyman963

Devs like people playing their games competitively. More competition = more likelihood of tournaments and events featuring your product = more (free) publicity = more people buying the game/add-ons/sequels = more competition. The goal is to get people outside of the community to want your product and get the people inside the community to stay in it. THAT is how this relates to Guild Wars. Having a loyal competitive community boosts sales of future products, so ANet cares (at least to some extent) about what the competitive community is saying.

Also, it's really cool to see other people like stuff that you made. It's most game devs' wet dream to see people playing their game on TV. Would people still play PvP even if the "hardcore" guys left? Sure, but they wouldn't be any good. Would somebody still be "the best" in the eyes of GW players? Yes, but nobody else would care.

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Tic, you've claimed that most of the people in the game are PvEers and PvP/PvEers and that people wanting a UAS are a small minority. I do concur there would be somewhat slightly less population in the PvP/PvE ladder if your assertion is true, but if all those PvP/PvE ladder (that you've claimed make up a significant majority of the community) really don't like the UAS, they'd remain in the PvP/PvE ladder and the UAS would be the one that dies off due to lack of players. The competition would be in the PvP/PvE ladders since so many people according to you hate UAS and would play where most of the population is residing. However, you keep contradicting yourself when you keep claiming the PvP/PvE ladder would die off since everyone would migrate to the UAS ladder.

gwden · May 31, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

The instant gratification that exists in CS does not in GW. The style of "PvP" in the two games is vastly different. What draws people to CS is the fast play and ability to be a '1 man army'. Those things don't exist in GW. GW is a much more intellectual game... and I don't think the UAS system would keep those people around.

I don't think I'd play GW without the 'achievement/character development' (unlocking runes & skills) aspect of the game.

You'd play it and kiss the ground the developers walk on like a good boy. The instant gratification does exist in GW-- PvP templates? CS is a team game. Have you even played it before?